The Law and greyhounds

Jennifer · Master

The Law and greyhounds

evilshiddenclaws · Old Hand

ive no idea what the law states but sensible people like yourself seem to be aware of how dangerous it can be. my lurcher had a very high pray drive with cats and rabbits, he was however absolutly fine with tiny dogs. i only ever let him off the lead where i didnt expect to see a cat, but saying that he had great recall skills, stopped in his tracks a couple times... i miss him, he was the best dog id ever met..

moptop · Master

Hi Jennifer, I asked Hubby about this question, he is a recently retired Police Sergeant. He seems to think there is something in the "Dangerous Dogs Act" that that could be interpretated as "scaring" That is, If a dog is acting in a intimidating, menacing or threatening manner it could be mean the owner could be prosecuted under the Dangerous Dogs Act. So Val, is correct about this. Although, I think it could be a difficult one to prove if there was no actual physical contact between two animals!!!! Maybe it is one of these grey areas in the law!! Check out the Dangerous Dogs Act on the internet.

Marian.

Jennifer · Master

Thanks for that Marian, i have checked out the DDA - but again, it refers to a dog acting threatening towards a person, no mention of threatening behaviour to another animal. See below

Section 3(1) Dangerous Dogs Act 1991
This part of the Dangerous Dogs Act applies to every single dog in England & Wales, no matter whether it is a pure bred dog, cross or a mongrel and regardless of its size.

This is a criminal offence which can be brought against the owner of a dog (and if different the person in charge of a dog) if a dog is:

dangerously out of control
in a public place

'Dangerously out of control' is defined as being 'on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person'. Generally, if a dog bites someone then it will be presumed to have been dangerously out of control.

'Public place' is defined as including any place 'to which the public have or are permitted to have access'.

moptop · Master

Hi Jennifer, Marian's Hubbie here -
The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, Sec 3, does indeed refer to injuries to PERSONS or a reasonable expectation of such.
However, I would suggest that, if your dog displayed very aggressive tendencies towards other dogs, or indeed seriously injured/killed another dog, a court may reasonably conclude that this constituted a danger of attack to humans as well, in all the circumstances; especially if, say, the dog injured/killed was in the close, direct charge of it's owner at the time.
At the end of the day, most laws are open to common-sense interpretation and common sense may dictate that a dog which is dangerous to others of its kind, may also be dangerous to their owners at the same time.

Jennifer · Master

Thanks for that. I just really wanted to see it in black and white since i had been telling friends about it. I couldn't back up what i'd said as couldn't find it anywhere

Willow will be onlead from now on anyway, not taking any risks

Sunny girl · Master

This is all really interesting, I know its something Jennifer is really worried about but it could also be helpful to all of us.

I'd be interested in what the law is for all those dogs running about free in the park who are a real nuisance to people and dogs.

Jennifer wrote:
I must admit when i just had Millie, i used to think it was crazy that people say they could never let their dogs off lead, but since having Willow who has an extremely high prey drive and is constantly scanning the horizon for something to chase, i am a lot more cautious.

I think until you own a dog who can not be let of the lead there is no way you can understand it. I have been upset many times by other greyhound owners who have "digs" about dogs being on lead all the time and how nice it is to see them run off lead. For some of us that is just not an option unless we can find a fully enclosed dog proof space.

Sunny is one of those dogs who can not be let off the lead in an open place. After two heart stopping moments when she took off across main roads we made the decision to never let her off in an open place again. We are lucky to have a few fenced areas near by where she can be let off safely.

Owners have a responsibility to everyone not just their own dog. When Sunny ran across a main road it was a miracle that not only saved her but also saved all the drivers of the cars on the road. She could so easily have caused a crash.

I met a woman with a greyhound at the park a few months back we got talking and she asked why Sunny was not off the lead I explained. She replied "oh mine is always taking off I just have to chase after him or hope someone catches him." weirdface

In my opinion its owners like this who should be prosecuted.

Sorry to go off on a rant. Hope you find what you need Jennifer. At the end of the day you are doing everything right he has a muzzle on and you don't let him off.

Landess

max · Enlightened One

As owners we all have to be responsible for our dogs and this is all down to common sense. If we feel our dog has low prey drive and has good recall then certaintly the dog can be allowed off, but if there is any doubt on either recall or drive then common sense prevails. With Cas though none aggressive (no biting but lots of growling)too other dogs and medium prey drive she was on lead in open spaces for three years before I let her off down the beach in an open space and it was heart in mouth when I did it. Even yet after five years I would not allow Cas off in unsecure,woodland or open areas etc the beach has very little distractions and she is kept busy with a ball . This may be my own insercurities but I always prefer to err on the edge of caution. As for the laws on this matter I do know the answer but when I spoke to the council about social dog walks they did expect dogs to walk within 3 metres of thier owners and not make a nuisance of themselves to other walkers or dogs. I will try to find out a bit more about this. hmm

Nora

Jennifer · Master

Thanks, any advice on this would be great

I just find it hard to believe that you could be prosecuted for something that isn't down in black and white

So if someone could should me where its states it, that would be great.
Someone i know's German Shephard bit another dog last week and the other dog had 4 puncture wounds and needed vets treatment. The incident was report to police by the other dogs owner and so far nothing has been done

Which makes me think there's nothing the police can do.

Sunny girl · Master

Jennifer I read in the paper at the weekend that the Dangerous Dog Act does not apply to incidents that happen on private property only public spaces. This surprised me.
The thing is no matter how bad Willow is to other dogs I just can't think of him as "dangerous" he's such a sweetie aww

As for the police acting on the incident with your friends dog.....it could take a while. My friend was seriously assaulted a few months ago and she's still waiting for the police to act. cry

Landess

tootsmazza · Enlightened One

In West Lothian last summer a man called Kevin Vivers was fined £110 under the Dangerous Dogs Act after his four lurchers went into a woman's back garden and killed her cat, which she had on a lead.
The relevant term pursued by police and the SSPCA was that the dogs were "not under the owner's control".
This happened on private property and involved a cat, which people generally think are not protected by law as cat owners are not held liable for their actions, so it shows that in any case where it is felt the dog is out of control there is enough flexibility for action to be taken.
Marie

Jennifer · Master

Sunny girl wrote:

Jennifer I read in the paper at the weekend that the Dangerous Dog Act does not apply to incidents that happen on private property only public spaces. This surprised me.

Yes, but it still only states about a dog on person attack - nothing about a dog on dog attack?

I dont care if anyone thinks im cruel keeping him onlead anyway

I know he's safe and also wee dogs are safe too! If i let him off and he went to pin a wee dog down (he can do this with muzzle on), the owner could easily lay into Willow - so safer all round if he stays onlead. With his damaged spine anyway it wont do him any harm to have onlead walks. He has plenty room in the garden to have a tear about

Jennifer · Master

Thanks Marie, i had actually heard about that and forgotten about it. You'd still think there would have be something written in black and white to have to abide by it eh?

or am i just being far too naive?

Steve · Master

Jennifer - Willow sounds like Harry - big prey drive! Harry has fear aggression too with most other breeds so it adds to the fun. We are lucky in that we have a large field close by which is more or less enclosed but dogs and their owners walks through it regularly. Since we can normally see if anyone's coming or not we sometimes let Harry off (muzzled) in the late evening to play with a squeeky toy. He's obsessed with the squeeky toys! I throw it and he chases and once he has it he lies with it between his front paws. Obviously the squeeky sounds like rabbits so he is absolutely focussed on it. He gets a biscuit for letting me take it from him. He gets a bit of off lead action this way but we do have to watch out for other dogs - a chance we take so that he has some fun. I also run the full length of the field - check no-one is around and blow our whistle or squeek the toy and Fiona lets him go and he's full out bombing our way. And he gets off once in a blue moon on a quiet beach when the tide is out. So, we find ways that work for Harry so that he can get off lead but to be honest he's fine and happy as a bunny on the lead too - makes no difference to him at all. I'm sure Willow will be fine and at least you know he's safe.

-- Edited by Steve at 14:23, 2007-05-08

Jennifer · Master

Thanks for that Steve

I have been speaking to Fiona and Harry and Willow are VERY alike

I have tried squeaky things to distract Willow when im out and also tasty high value treats, but he is so interested in scanning the horizon that when he's out and about, he isn't intersted in anything, even things that he shows an interest in when he's in the house, he ignores outside because there might be something else he can find more interesting

I know the field you mean so you mind find me in their some nights - you'll have to que up to wait your turn

Jax · Master

We've got a slightly different problem and wonder where it would stand legally...we keep Dan on the lead (Sally too) and often have other dogs, off lead, running up to him. He suffers fear aggression too and this is very threatening for him. On a couple of occasions when he hasn't been muzzled (our fault for forgetting his muzzle) he has gone for the dog that has run up to him. We always feel responsible but slightly miffed as our dog is on the lead and under control and it's the other dog that comes into his space. If an owner was to challenge us in such a circumstance I don't know whose responsibility it would ultimately be! Needless to say we do try to remember Dan's muzzle at all times to prevent him being able to cause any damage to other dogs, up until now he's only ever got fur in his mouth!

FAJ · Enlightened One

As far as I understand, if your dog is on lead then it is under control.

I feel for you, because we often have exactly the same situation with Harry. It seems such a blummen shame having to muzzle our dogs each and every time we leave the house just in case other folk don't regulate their own animals. I suppose at least we have the luxury of knowing we're being responsible.

tootsmazza · Enlightened One

Jax wrote:

we keep Dan on the lead (Sally too) and often have other dogs, off lead, running up to him. He suffers fear aggression too and this is very threatening for him.

I'd be very surprised if you ever faced a legal threat when an off-lead dog came up to Dan and was injured. The very definition of keeping a dog under control is the owner's ability to stop it going up to other animals, people etc on command.
Poor old Mason's been a bit stiff this week after an over-excited staffy pup came running up to him on Sunday evening and threw itself on his back.
He always warns off dogs that try to jump on him with a growl but this time it was an out and out yelp. The owners were a good distance away and v. apologetic when they caught up but this happens quite often and my opinion is that if the other dog is bitten it serves them right. They are off the lead and out of control,and our dogs can't be expected to second guess whether a dog running up to them like that is going to want to play or attack furious

Marie

Dawn · Guru

Jennifer wrote:

The incident was report to police by the other dogs owner and so far nothing has been done
Which makes me think there's nothing the police can do.

The owner of the two Staffies who attacked Kaz was charged by the Police because he didnt have control of his dogs in a 'public' area. The Police were more concerned about what injuries I had received, and apart from extensive bruising, I had little to show.
The owner was known to the Police because he was involved in drugs and they also knew he was training his staffies for dog fighting.
It was the Procurator Fiscal who decided not to take the charges further. furious

They probably didnt think it was worth it, considering the owner of the staffies already had a list of convictions the length of your arm!!

The Police did tell him to move the dogs away from the area, or he wouldnt be so lucky next time.
Me.....the brusing cleared up after a week, I paid the vet bill, and sadly a few months after the attack Kaz died from seizures as a direct result of the attack!!
As they say the law is an ass.......the owner doesnt have the dogs anymore, and I know he served a bit of time for trying to steal a car and drug possession!! wink Maybe on that ocassion he was innocent wink what a shame!

-- Edited by Dawn at 12:26, 2007-05-15

evilshiddenclaws · Old Hand

i havent read all the posts so put me straight if someones already said this but dog/dog aggression is not the same as dog/people aggression, some dogs only have dog/dog aggression, like a boxer in our kennels at the moment, he'd quite happily kill any dog that crosses his path but he's the sweetest natured dog with humans.

this is probably why the DDA doesnt state dogs showing signs of aggression to other dogs is a sign of a dog dangerously out of control, unless of course serious damage is caused to another animal, the courts decide the fate of the dog, not the script in the DDA.

and i havent read it in a while but im sure it only refers to incidents in public, if a dog shows signs of aggression on its own property, depending on the circumstances, it can be a very cloudy situation.

but like i've probably said before, owners should take responsible actions, if they know their dogs have uncertain temperments towards other animals, they should do the sensible thing and keep their dogs on a lead or even muzzled.

i can let my dog off lead because he comes back when called and stays close BUT i take into consideration the feelings of other people and if i see another person or dog, i put mine back onto a lead. the main reason being, i dont know what this dog wil be like with mine. there are so many inconsiderate people in this world that sensible people are always the ones to suffer.

Amber · Master

From various reports I've heard, police don't usually take criminal action regarding dog on dog attacks; the DDA is primarily concerned with attacks (or threatening behaviour) toward people by dogs that are out of control.

Having said that, the police in my area will 'take an interest' in dog-dog attacks; someone I know was given a verbal warning by police to always muzzle her greyhound when off lead, after it attacked a poodle (though not sure any actual damage was done to poodle). However, this is not the same as a court order, but probably enough to worry most people.

I think it depends a lot on the what the CPS in the area deems can be made to stick in a court.

I 100% agree though that if a dog is high prey drive toward other dogs, it is not safe to let it off lead around other dogs in a park or whatever, even with a muzzle on. I had a couple of fosters like this and they were on lead and muzzled in parks and for pavement walking. I would be devastated if any dog in my care seriously injured or killed someone's small dog, even if that small dog had run up to mine. If however the foster dog (after being trialled on lead and muzzled in public) met some small breeds and was OK, then I did not continue to muzzle. It's really about making a judgement call and having a hunch that the dog you are walking could seriously attack another.

However, I do think that this current climate of 'dog hysteria' and litigious society is on the whole not a good thing and discourages people from allowing their dog to mix when the dog is not dangerous, which can then lead to poor socialisation and the dog *does* become reactive.

-- Edited by Amber at 22:32, 2007-06-10

Michelle · Master

I have the same problem as Jax has with Dan. Jet detests any dog which is not greyhound shaped but the best place to work with him (in absence of a garden is the park.

I had him there on a long lead and was practicing recall stuff when a spaniel came running over to us and neither Jet nor I saw it until it was right behind him and jet jumped on him. Fortunately neither was badly injured but I felt dreadful and had no idea whose fault this was. I had chosen an early hour so there would be no other dogs about as trying to train him with the muzzle on a well as the gentle leader is really hard.

It has made me really nervous of continuing his training on the long lead but then Jet missing out and he needs to learn these things - i'm not sure really what to do. Apart from training he is always muzzled and is always on the lead when we go out for walks.

-- Edited by Michelle at 14:16, 2007-06-17