Top Doggy?

Steve · Master

Top Doggy?

FAJ · Enlightened One

Just to add to what Steve has said.

Harry will also very deliberately swat Pearly with his paws if he wants to get her out of the way, eg, if we're putting on leads, or if she's standing having a cuddle. He usually swat her around her neck and last night he biffed her in the face. We don't think he's meaning to hurt her, but given that he's such a big lummock (in a nice way!) it might well do.

JanW · Master

Hiya,

I have a similar situation with Ruby and Spoons. I mentioned it to Carole at the weekend and she advised the dog with the best bed, and who will make the other one move to get the best bed is top dog - so Pearly for you and Spoons for me.

However Ruby demands more attention and will push Spoons out of the way to get it - he doesn't seem to mind. The top dog position may not be fixed yet, as they will still be settling. I saw a coup yesterday with Ruby as top dog for a few hours.

Steve · Master

Well - we've never seen Harry get Pearly off 'his' bed when she;s lying down - but he has removed her when she is standing up he did this by bending down and putting his head under her back leg and then lifting - Pearly was doing an involuntary hurdle!

He'll not bother her if she's lying down.

FAJ · Enlightened One

Interesting about the beds. Pearly and Harry have huge fleecy cushion-type beds in the living room, and the more traditional plastic beds with blankets in the kitchen (where they spend the day whilst we're at work and sleep overnight).

Pearly used to like the cushion right behind the sofa so she could roach and hold onto the sides of the sofa, but Harry took it very early on and she let him. Now, she likes the other cushion nearer the radiator. If Harry lies on it she can get agitated and pace the living room, and she'll lie down in the sphinx position near him and keep throwing glances at him. But she won't make him move so she can have it. And he doesn't make her move to get a particular bed.

In the kitchen, she'll lie in his bed but he never goes into her own. Though maybe this is just cos she likes the superduper cosy blanket on his bed! And maybe Harry is too macho to sleep in a bed with a pink fleece.

Jay · Old Hand

Apparently some behaviourists think there is no hierarchy within "packs" in a house. I would tend to disagree though...

Our Lita is top, Boston middle and Denver bottom... I say this beacause Lita isn't slow in stating her view if one of the others upsets her, Boston isn't slow in stating his view if Denver upsets him, and Denver doesn't say boo to a goose... At least not to either of the other two!

Its funny in action, 'cos if Den gets onto the couch with Boston, he will sometimes growl at him and show teeth, but if Lita gets on, he just gets up, shifts over and huffs... And she can boss him with a look now, she doesn't need to get physical.

JanW · Master

Beds seem to be a topic of great contention. We have a really big cushion (they both share it sometimes) and a smaller one. Yesterday both dogs were standing on the big one nose to tail, and refusing to give up ownership. They walked around in a circle once like this and Ruby lay down. Although there was plenty of room for Spoons to join her, he decided to race accross the room, pounce on the smaller (usually Ruby's bed) and attack it!

I distracted him, and gave him a cuddle, Ruby came over to join in, and they started a major shoving and nipping contest for cuddles. I took them out to the garden to settle it and they raced around, barking and growling with no way of telling who won. Both seemed happy at the end - with waggy tails. Back indoors Ruby automatically went to her own bed, and left the big one for Spoons so it would seem he re-established his dominance.

On Saturday at the awareness day someone reccommended a book which helps make sense of doggy behaviour, but I can't remember who, or what it was! If you're reading this can you please post the details.

Dave · Enlightened One

hmmm...the old 'top dog' issue...I always explain to new owners taking a second dog about 'pack' and 'structure', essentially it's easy to explain and helps a great deal for me to get my various messages accross..but I'll be controversial here and say I've not 100% bought into the whole pack thing.

I always say Ruby is out 'top dog' and I guess to a large extent she is (although Glenda will disagree!) if we bring a new foster in Ruby is always the one making the introductons very slowly, tail raised and making a big show (whilst the others just go nuts in a big sniffing frenzy) she'll also 'shadow' the new dog round the house and garden keeping tabs on where it's going and what it's doing...top dog or just a jealous, you decide....

Comfiest bed? well our study where the dogs spend the majority of their time has six dog beds and seven dogs (honest there's no space for another bed, we've tried!) the comfiest bed ALWAYS goes to Suzie, she's 13 next month and I guess me and the rest of the 'pack' reckon she deserves it, no one tries to move her or even go in the bed if she's outside. Now picture the scene with six full beds and 1 dog looking for a bed and this is where it gets confusing, I've spent many an hour trying to hold in the laughter whilst 'top dog' Ruby will stare at a smaller dog that happens to be in the bed she wants, they never move for her, they will however always move for Ivor..

Stealing Chews?..Archie and George are the masters, whippet crosses, small and fast, the minute a chew or part of one falls from a big dogs mouth it's a blur of activity followed by a very confused large dog wondering exactly what just happened, no respect for the 'structure' there.

Anyways very interesting topic which I'm looking forward to hearing all your opinions on..

Steve & Fiona, the way you describe it Harry sounds like a 12 week old pup in the (very large) body of a grown up dog, he's just playing with Pearly with his mouthing, from what you say about Pearly and the food / chews / and warning growls she's defo head of the doggies in your house..

cheers

Dave

FAJ · Enlightened One

They had a very interesting chase about the garden just now. Steve and I stood back and watched - though we had the hose handy in case of any serious nasty argy-bargy! Harry really wanted Pearly to play with him, which she did. It was interesting to watch their body language as they stood on the patio. Harry was quite face-on to Pearly and she turned her head away. He let her walk away whenever she wanted, then went back to digging in the soil. Which got her all excited, and off they'd go again. Play would stop whenever Pearly wanted it to, and he didn't nip at her at all or even mouth her. There was a bit off rrraaaarrring, but nowt major. This kept up for about 10-15 mins then they decided they'd had enough - Harry lay down for a quick zzzz and Pearly followed me as I deadheaded some primulas (cos I knew you'd want to know that!!)

We're still not sure who's 'top'. Harry is obviously tougher than Pearly, given his size and general gung-ho demeanour. But she's a lot flyer, if you know what I mean. Saucy little madam that she is!

Please post everyone - we're really, really interested to hear your stories.

Fiona

ps: Harry is right here by my side with his big 12-week old puppy nose practically in my hand!!! Dave - you are SO right when you say that he's an overgrown pup.

greyflintstone · Master

We've had Freddy for almost 3 years and Wilma for 18 months - I would say we are still no closer to working out who's top dog! They both seem to know how to get their own way - Freddy is all argy-bargy and pushes her out of the way, whereas Wilma (being female ) will use her brain a little!!

They have one big bed in the kitchen - we used to have two, but space was tight! We got rid of them, and bought a king size duvet that they have all folded up in the kitchen. If Wilma takes all the space, Freddy will just stand on her until she shuffles up a bit. If Freddy takes all the space ...... Wilma lies in the living room until bedtime!

They like to play fight a lot - usually Wilma starts things, but Freddy will give as good as he gets. We were initially worried that they were hurting each other, but now we leave them to get on with it. Yes, there's lots of growling, but (IMHO) I think it sounds like a happy growling! There is certainly no teeth baring anyway! The few times that has happened a quick shout of "oi oi" is enough to stop it!! I'm sure if people saw them nipping and jumping on each other they might think they were trying to hurt each other, but it's all in good fun! After all, one of the reasons we wanted a second dog was as a companion for Freddy - and that includes someone/thing to play with!!

I'm a firm believer of letting dogs get on with establishing their own pecking order - as long as they know that ultimately they are below the human members of the family that is!

Lesley · Guru

We have had Sim since 1st December. He was 2 1/2 when he arrived and just a giant puppy - although nervous about lots of things.

Suzie arrived with us at the end of March. At over 9 1/2 she is 7 years older than Sim.

I expected dominance issues between them when Suzie arrived, but there haven't really been any. They have two beds which are side by side and they are both quite happy to sleep in either. We feed them in separate places and I stand over Suzie waiting for her to finish as Sim 'eats' (inhales his food) much faster than she does. He comes into the kitchen when he is finished and looks at Suzie, but never tries to eat her dinner (although I am sure he would if I wasn't standing watching).

Sim was obviously delighted right from the start to have Suzie for company. I do think he bullies Suzie a bit in the garden - rushing up and down and prodding her to come and play. At the moment she doesn't tell him off for that but I guess she might when she has been here longer. But eventually she does play with him, and enjoys it, and they are hilarious to watch: Sim gallops round the garden while Suzie (slower) tries to cut him off - they end up playing tag around trees and bushes.

It's not all one sided as Suzie will also initiate play in the house. She 'boxes' Sim with her front feet and he looks confused by that - as if he doesn't quite know what to do about it! If it sounds like their play is getting a bit too rough I will say sharply "what's going on" (or something similar) and they are both quite happy to stop more or less immediately (almost like they expected to be told off).

Sim does that nibbling thing at Suzie's neck so I am interested to hear that is a puppy action. He also does it to my hands when he is getting his coat on and excited about going out (I think it's sweet). They both pretend to 'eat' each other when playing, for example - Suzie will put her whole mouth around Sim's head, or leg but never actually bite him.

At the moment - between them - I don't think there is a top dog. Of course - one may yet emerge, and it is Charles's opinion (he fostered them both) that it will be Suzie. Watch this space!!

JanW · Master

Dave -

Do you feed your dogs in a particular order or otherwise reinforce the pack stucture?

It's now a topic of dicussion at my work and a colleague with 6 Babbity Bowsers says he finds it important to reinforce the pack stucture otherwise the younger dogs take advantage of the oldest (13yrs) and second dog in a bid for power!

CAROLE ROBINSON · Old Hand

This is an interesting debate but maybe “top dog” is not the best word to describe the way in which some dogs achieve a high status, maybe it’s just respect and often that comes from long time association. When I observe my eldest dog, a very self-contained boy, I can see that left to his own devices he would take the best of everything and the others would allow him to. However, my presence dissuades him and I know that he does respect me because he defers to me - if we both approach a doorway, he always steps back and allows me through first. I never have to tell him to, he just does it and such good manners in an otherwise strong and powerful dog (who has been known to be very aggressive), is very heartwarming. There is one thing he insists on though, whether I am around or not. If one of the dogs is on the bed he would like to lie on, he walks up to the bed and they immediately get off. I have never, ever seen the situation reversed. I have noticed too that when the 2 bitches are charging around the room having a carry-on, they always stay well away from his bed. The bitches will take things from one another, but wouldn't dream of pinching things from him. Maybe another male dog in the pack would turn all my theories on their head tho!

Dave · Enlightened One

Hi Janet, I guess our feeding times does possibly enforce some sort of structure however it's really a case of biggest, then smallest then oldest...We feed in 3 groups in the kitchen, first in are Ivor, Ruby & Rebel, our 3 big dogs, once they are finished Archie and George come in, our 2 small dogs, when they are done Wizard and Suzie get their turn, although both big dogs Wizard is about 9 and almost blind and Suzie is 13 next month so they both take a wee bit longer over their dinner and like a bit of peice and quiet..I suppose we kinda reinforce some sort of structure there between the big and small ones however don't really enforce anything in terms of all 3 of our biggies getting fed at the same time in the same place..

Steve · Master

We had moore bonkers behaviour tonight in the garden.

Harry pretends to dig in a dirt hole and Pearly goes bonkers around the garden until Harry chases her. The chase lasts about 5 secs as Pearly goes to a corner all quiet and Harry stands over her all stiff legged and tall. He goes back to the digging spot then Pearly does her turn again. Went on for 6 times until Harry actually starting digging - gee whizz - this dog is like a JCB! The garden wall was splattered with muck.

They then run round the garrden until Harry tried to grab her neck and she barked back. He then chased her inside and stood over her again not letting her move.

skinnydugs · Master

hi, I feed all the dogs together, usually the small ones get fed first cos they are slow, then the stands go out and all the dogs stand at their own stand. Jill who I think is leader gets fed first then Fynn who is a big male is 2nd. Although they are together they wouldnt dream of rushing to the first bowl down. They know the routine of by heart,aisha and red are next then legion and the only reason sally gets fed last is she likes peace to eat it in the bedroom.They are noy long getting into a routine.

Clever things