Recall - treat every time?

Steve · Master

Recall - treat every time?

JENNY · Big Cheese

Personally I would treat every time to begin. Then once you get 100% every time for a while I'd reduce it to every other time to keep the interest giving them an enthusiastic applause. This is what I'm doing to teach Ziggy and Vern to sit.

Dave · Enlightened One

Hi Steve - I'd say if you are doing the recall just occasionally when they get off lead then treat every time!!

Viv · Old Hand

Absolutely, outdoor recalls require that you have to be the most exciting thing on earth! Otherwise dogs will only return when they have finished doing what to them is more interesting than you. With many major distractions out there, being interesting is not easy to achieve. However, to overcome this, you have to be imaginative; use a large lure - whole chicken breast occasionally. Squeeky toy - that they do get a shot of, play tuggy. Cooked liver. Don't always put them on the lead to go home, put the lead on then let them off to 'go play' and never sound even the least bit annoyed.

Viv

FAJ · Enlightened One

Thanks, Viv. We use high-reward treats when we're outdoors, but I suppose our worry was that the dogs would get blase about them, ie, if they know they always get a bit of liver or chicken when they come back, then they'll just come back whenever the heck they please.

Or am I being daft in thinking that dogs would ever get blase about chicken and liver!!

Fiona

ps: would appreciate your thoughts on our recent extra-sniffing puzzle in "Behaviour".....

Viv · Old Hand

FAJ wrote:

always get a bit of liver or chicken

If you did the above, then they would get blaze about coming back. You need to vary the SIZE of treats and sometimes have a game of tuggy OR squeeky toy. The object is that they never know what they are going to get. Yes, life IS like a box of chocolates!

FAJ · Enlightened One

Viv wrote:

FAJ wrote:
always get a bit of liver or chicken

If you did the above, then they would get blaze about coming back. You need to vary the SIZE of treats and sometimes have a game of tuggy OR squeeky toy. The object is that they never know what they are going to get. Yes, life IS like a box of chocolates!

Aaah, I get you - so they always get something fab for coming back, but we've to keep them guessing about what it might be to keep their excitement up.

Thanks!

Viv · Old Hand

You got it.

Sunny girl · Master

Hi Viv

Sunny is nearly 6 ( a successful ex-racer) we have had her for 6months and before that she was in another home. They told GAL she had good recall and 9 out of ten times she has. When we first started to let her off the lead a while after getting her everything was fine. We used rewards and made a massive fuss when she came back but then twice she just took off ( no warning and not after another dog/person) and we had two really bad scares with main roads. Now we only let her off in a secure fenced off area, she enjoys this and I've taught her to fetch and play with a ball and I have continued recall training in this area, but I have lost my confidence about trying her off lead in the main park again. We did try her off lead on one of the beach walks, feeling reasured that she would stay with the other dogs, but to be honest she couldn't have cared about the other dogs and I had a worrying few minutes before we got her back again.

What I wanted to ask is can a "runner" be reformed or can some dogs just never be let off lead in an open space.

Sunny is an angel in the house, very quiet and calm and walks very well on the lead, but will not sit or down to command no matter how hard I try (she never does a sit position herself ever). Would basic obedience training help with her recall?

I've read what you said about varying treats with intrest and will try these out and I will ask Siouxsie to give me some pointers on training Sunny the next time I see her. Maybe its the way I'm asking her?

Landess and Sunny

JENNY · Big Cheese

Hi Landess

When I was teaching Ziggy to sit I noticed he put his bum in a sit before lowering himself on his bed. I used the clicker when his bum hit the bed and gave him a treat saying sit and praising him. Eventually he realised that it was putting his bum on the floor that I was praising him for. We were then able to move off the bed onto the hallway carpet and now he will sit on the kitchen floor before he gets his food. He now sits all the time when I get the treats out. I did the same with Vernon and he's getting it.

Sunny girl · Master

Thanks Jenny but Sunny honestly never does the sit position herself. I've spent days carrying a pocket of treats around trying to catch her but it just dosn't happen. She kind of lowers her front end first when she lies down.

I'm not going to stress over it as shes perfect in the house and will go and lie down when told. It would be interesting to see if someone like Viv could get her to do it. I've told Dave before I think I have the hound that could challenge his claim that greyhounds are very trainable!!!!!

Landess and Sunny

Viv · Old Hand

Sunny girl wrote:

What I wanted to ask is can a "runner" be reformed or can some dogs just never be let off lead in an open space.

Would basic obedience training help with her recall? I've read what you said about varying treats with intrest and will try these out and I will ask Siouxsie to give me some pointers on training Sunny the next time I see her. Maybe its the way I'm asking her? Landess and Sunny

In such cases, I would not let her off to run free until the recall was 100% in all cases and situations. I would use a 50' tracking line so I could prevent the dog getting away and becoming a learned behaviour.

Basic obedience, using a clicker, would be the only way to go about fixing the problem. It has nothing to do with the way you are asking her, it's all more to do with reinforcement - are you worth coming back to or is that speck on the horizon more interesting?? If she gets pleasure from running off, she is likely to want to do it again.

Viv

Sunny girl · Master

Thanks Viv thats very interesting and makes alot of sence. Sunny has had a slight sprain so is on lead for a few weeks but i'm still doing recall training on a longer lead like you suggested I've been varying her rewards and to be honest last night she was more interested in me than sniffing about. I should have said her recall in the fenced area is 100% because she knows she can't go anywhere. Playing with a ball has helped as well. when we first got her if you let her off she would just run and run at full speed round in circles then come back it took me a long time to teach her she could just walk off the lead. Now when I let her off (again this is only ever in enclosed area) she just jumps about at me saying wheres my ball.

Am I right in thinking that you did a book for GAL and it has clicker training in it? I will get a clicker and book as soon as possible.

Ohhh I wish you did classes in the East

Thanks for all your help.

Landess and Sunny

Steve · Master

"Can an ex-racer be reformed"

If you are asking if you can stop them tearing off after things - in my case, not a chance. But you can lessen the risks with good training I suppose.

Pearly gets let off in fields nearby and nowhere else and that keeps her happy - there's no pressure to have to let her off all the time like an everyday Labrador kind of pooch. My personal opinion, and it is tainted by my own experieince with my two ex-racers, but I don't think you can treat them like other breeds and expect them not to follow their instincts.

Good luck with the recall - chicken and liver work well!

Sunny girl · Master

Thanks Steve for advice

Chicken and Liver eeerrrrgh I'm a veggie but I'll give it a go since I love her so much.

And yes I agree I don't feel pressured into letting her off every day as she's happy on the lead but it would be nice to let her off somewhere different except the football pitch I use. I get bored with it so she must to. To be honest she's so mad about playing with her ball now that I think she'd be a lot better but I'd rather not take the chance just yet.

Landess

Steve · Master

Hi, Landess - a wee thought on whether Sunny gets bored being let off in the same place. I always wonder about that with Pearly, because we're very restricted too on where she can get let off lea. However, for her the field is a different experience every time, depending on what dog has widdled where, how that widdling dog is feeling, what stuff people might have dropped in the field (or on the footie pitch), etc, etc. If you're playing with her, then that will make it exciting for her too.

And cheese works just as well as liver and chicken, if that's easier for you to stomach!!

Good luck!

Fiona
(and not Steve - just couldn't be ersed logging out/in!)

ps: and if you're anywhere near Gullane then you'd be welcome to check out Pearly's field!

Sunny girl · Master

Thanks Fiona that all makes sence about it being different every time and I've taken on board what Viv said about making me seem more exciting than the spec in the distance.

She's still on the lead for a few weeks yet due to her sprain, but I'm looking forward to trying all these new things with her.

I might just take you up on that offer to try Pearlys field it would be nice to meet at last. I can't drive so i need to nag my Steve into bringing me down that way one day.

And yes I did try to pick up some liver at Tesco today but it wasn't happening so I got her some hotdogs instead.

Thanks again its good to talk to someone with a dog who is similar off lead.

Landess and Sunny

Leolurcher · Master

Viv wrote:

Absolutely, outdoor recalls require that you have to be the most exciting thing on earth!

For me Viv sums up the challenge of rescuing any adult dog with a high prey drive. There is heaps of training advice on the recall from all kinds of dog training schools of thought but when it comes down to the wire as far as my limited experience of rescue lurchers goes Vivs quote is simple and to the point. No matter what we think of the brilliance of the human race? when dealing with hunting dogs we have to gear our thinking to making ourselves more exciting to our dogs than chasing a rabbit in whatever way we can. In my case a lot was down to hiding in ditches with a pocket full of chicken and a squeaky toy that sounded like an animal in distress

Dealing with the high prey drive dog can include relating treats to performance i.e for my Flash the lurcher.... once I knew that he grasped what was wanted of him it was zero treats for a slow return to the whistle and bountiful treats plus kisses and cuddles for a fast return.

Love to all

Eleanor Leo and Flashxxxxxx