Fear aggression

Lorna · GAL Shop Co-Ordinator

Fear aggression

Lesley · Guru

Hi Lorna - how about a training class? I took Sim to dog training and it introduced him to all sorts of different shaped dogs - large and small.

You probably work during the day, but if you were ever free on a Monday or Tuesday - I walk my dogs (2 gh's and a foster gh) at lunchtime in Balloch Country Park with a friend who has two black labs, and another friend with a westie cross. All six dogs are great friends. If you gave me enough notice to let Sally (black lab owner) know, and make sure it was alright with her, you could join us. Or - perhaps we could organise something similar at a weekend when things are not quite as fraught as they seem (for me) at the moment.

Lorna · GAL Shop Co-Ordinator

Hi Lesley

Yes, I did try training classes with other dogs when I first got Harley but he became very stressed in that environment on a lead. I was advised to take him out the class as he was being disruptive and to see a behaviourist which I did. He has been to classes with greyhounds which is fine and he behaves well there. In fact if other greyhounds are around he is usually more relaxed about other breeds - he is just nervous of them on their own or if they run up to him.

The behaviourist recommended more contact with other dogs when I saw her (it was a while ago) and I have tried making friends with other dogs out walking but people are too busy sometimes to stop and quite often they avoid us altogether which is understandable I suppose.

I would love to meet up for a walk sometime - It may take some time for him to get used to the black Labs and Westie cross but I know it will happen if I persevere. Having your greyhounds there will help I'm sure. I am around in the day time during the week but could also meet at the weekend - (am away this weekend however). Whatever suits you and your friend (if she is willing!).

Thanks for the offer - if you want you can email me via the forum to arrange a time and date if your friend agrees.

Lorna

Steve · Master

Sounds very much like our Harry - GAL's most handsome lad at the last Xmas show. (Had to get that in again!).

He's four and has fear aggression with non-greys. He is fine with most dogs in a group situation - always behaves at GAL walks and at the vets when waiting for any treatment but take him on his usual walks then he lunges and goes for anything that comes too close. Black labs and Golden retrievers are the worst. I'm told it is tricky for dogs to read a Black Labs facial expressions so that may be a reason for your grey to hate them with a passion.

He is muzzled all the time when we are out and he doesn't get let off the lead cos his prey drive is bonkers too. He seems blissfully happy, even when our other one is running around daft. When we feel daring we let the big lad loose (we are lucky to have secluded fields near us) when it is quiet so that he has a 20 min bimble. We have to be very careful - any smaller dogs or deer and cats would be fair game. He is very much a see, chase and well...say no more..

You can use distraction treats to help when walking past other dogs and we do have some success - just keep shoving the treats down his muzzle! We don't think classes would help Harry as he does behave with lots of doggies - we are told that he is being clever and quiet so as not to be noticed on these occassions. With other greys he's relaxed. It seems to be any other dogs he meets on walks - he spots them a mile off and gives the Cheetah style of head down stalk.

If your doggy lunges all the time, get a gentle leader and it will help control his head. Worst thing is to use a harness and a normal collar allows him to keep looking at the dog. With a gentle leader and muzzle on Harry is well dressed!

The best we can do as far as socialising him is to stand near other dogs and chat with the owners about his behaviour - whilst stuffing food down his gob - he then associates dogs as being good things. Most owners have their dogs off lead where we are so they tend to move on quick when Harry starts off on one - shame! .

Otherwise - Harry is great. Brilliant character - a hilarious bull in a china shop dog but crafty to boot. Very friendly too with people.

He has just flown up the stairs in a mad frenzy so that's a sign for his evening walkie.

Good luck.

Lorna · GAL Shop Co-Ordinator

Thanks Steve

THarry and Harley what a pair !! They sound exactly the same as far as behaviour goes - I do use a gentle leader collar on him but he can still manage to dance around and lunge - somehow the fear of the other dog overrides anything else.

I have used clickers and treats before but again nothing overcomes entirely his instinct to react. Hopefully a bit of socialisation will do the trick - !! Will let you know how I get on.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one with a dog like this !!! He is a great boy at home and very good in every other way - I wouldn't change him for anything

Thanks

Lorna

Amber · Master

My Oscar is not good with strange dogs - including greyhounds. He has a large hole in his neck which I assume is a scar from a dog bite (so I guess another greyhound attacked him at some point). Large breed dogs are more scary for him than smaller, and males are more scary than bitches.

With using high value treats and allowing him to look at other dogs from a *comfortable* distance, he has improved a lot and will ignore most dogs, *unless* they run up to him or make a direct approach that he finds threatening. Like you, ideally I'd like to get him socialising more with stable, well socialised dogs, but it is difficult to access such dogs...and you never really know how things would go with strange dogs out on walks.

As an aside I am really upset just now, as last Thursday we were suddenly approached (no chance of getting away) by a Weimy x staffy that turned aggressive NO owner on the scene and so there was quite a barney, but no damage done to anyone, thank goodness. There is no way to control every situation, but what I try to do is take him to the same places where dogs seem to be under reasonable control, and let him look at them if he wants to, but not so close so that he is stressed and scared.

I don't use a headcollar or any collar, but a harness, so that I am not interfering with his signalling system. I can also grab the harness if I need to.

What you often find though if the problem is very deep-rooted - as it is with my dog - whilst they can get used to some dogs (Oscar has met 100s) every new dog that approaches still is perceived as a threat...it's difficult to get them to generalise that most dogs are OK. But still it's good practice if you can widen his social circle, good luck.

Steve · Master

"I don't use a headcollar or any collar, but a harness, so that I am not interfering with his signalling system. I can also grab the harness if I need to. "

Amber - just interested in your note about the harness and signalling as we were advised that a gentle leader is better system to use for a fear aggressive dog (our Harry). We used to use a harness but it made it easier and more comfy for Harry to lunge and more difficult for me to control him. I used a harness for months and have to say I find it much easier to use a gentle leader. If Harry is going totally bonkers - as he does with a few of his fav lunge dogs - I grab the leader right under his jaw and can more easily stop him from bucking.

Only draw back is that I don't like using a gentle leader on a hot day with his muzzle on top - I revert to his saluki style slip collar with muzzle so that he can open his mouth easier - he gets very hot and a muzzle doesn't help either!

Each to their own I suppose but thought you might find our experience useful? I think Oscar is very like Harry!

Lorna · GAL Shop Co-Ordinator

Thought I would put a wee update here on the situation.

Lesley and her friend Sally kindly agreed to meet me for a walk with Harley, Lesley's three greyhounds and Sally's two black labradors.

We had a lovely walk at Balloch and they all got on fine - Harley stayed on the lead and muzzled. He barked once at one of the black labs but apart from that there was none of the fear aggression behaviour on display. I am really pleased as I know he can be fine around other dogs under certain circumstances. He was so distracted with the other greyhounds he even let me pat the labs and didn't make a sound.

So my theory is he is not confident on his own meeting other breeds but likes to be in a gangwhere he feels safer (this is something the behaviourist I saw mentioned might be the case). Unfortunately we are not in a position to get another dog just now but hope to keep up with our walks with Lesley to give Harley more confidence.

Thanks again Lesley and co. for a great confidence boosting walk

Lesley · Guru

No probs Lorna - we all enjoyed it, and are looking forward to the next one which will be next week.

Sally (black lab owner) is a real pro dog person and was pleased to be able to offer help in the way of labrador therapy. Her boy Jack was perfect cos - although he can be quite assertive, he is not aggressive so - when Harley had a little 'go' at the start - Jack just let it pass and didn't retaliate.

Hopefully, with borrowed confidence from the other gh's - Harley's own confidence may improve with time.

FAJ · Enlightened One

Really glad to hear that things went well on the walk for everyone.

Amber · Master

Steve wrote:

"I don't use a headcollar or any collar, but a harness, so that I am not interfering with his signalling system. I can also grab the harness if I need to. " Amber - just interested in your note about the harness and signalling as we were advised that a gentle leader is better system to use for a fear aggressive dog (our Harry). We used to use a harness but it made it easier and more comfy for Harry to lunge and more difficult for me to control him. I used a harness for months and have to say I find it much easier to use a gentle leader. If Harry is going totally bonkers - as he does with a few of his fav lunge dogs - I grab the leader right under his jaw and can more easily stop him from bucking. Only draw back is that I don't like using a gentle leader on a hot day with his muzzle on top - I revert to his saluki style slip collar with muzzle so that he can open his mouth easier - he gets very hot and a muzzle doesn't help either! Each to their own I suppose but thought you might find our experience useful? I think Oscar is very like Harry!

Hi

I just think different types of equipment suit different dogs and different approaches.

I try to keep Oscar *out* of any situations where he feels the need to lunge at a dog. In fact, the *only* time he will lunge at dogs these days is if they run up to him. If a dog runs up and gets in his face, I try to remove him from the situation quickly - attempt to avoid the confontation before the other dog has even reached us. However, if he does feel the need to defend himself, I don't want to put him in a 'straight jacket' like a Headcollar that inhibits his warnings - I would rather have a dog that feels he can lunge and give plenty warning than one that will go straight in biting, because he feels trapped and unable to communicate how distressed he is...I also think that with any type of lead connected to head or neck, no matter how hard you try to keep the lead loose, I personally find there is a bit of reflex action to stiffen the arm on seeing a dog and this could accidentally pull your dog's head up into a more aggressive stance. I would prefer Oscar to develop better communication himself, in safe, comfortable situations, without my artifically pulling his head around, if you see what I mean?

The last behaviourist I saw approved the use of a harness, though he ideally would have used it in conjunction with a headcollar and double-ended lead, though said the headcollar was not necessary if the dog is uncomfortable with it (which mine is).

There is a new TTouch Balancing harness, called the Mekuti Balance Harness, that has several attachment points for a double-ended lead, which gives the dog greater balance and the handler more control that I will be trying next, so I'll let you know how that goes!

-- Edited by Amber at 17:53, 2006-06-19

Lesley · Guru

Lorna and Harley came and joined us again today - with my gh's and my friend Sally with her two black labs. Although this is only the second time Harley has come out with us - this time he paid almost no attention to the labs at all - apart from excited barking and wagging when the labs were swimming in the River Leven - we all thought he wanted to join in.

Lorna · GAL Shop Co-Ordinator

Another positive step - yesteday Iain and I took Harley for his morning walk and met a neighbour with a beautiful red King Charles spaniel. She stopped and talked to us and her dog ignored Harely mostly and he was very good. Let the lady pat him and I patted her dog with no problems at all. Soon they will be best friends!

It's really nice when people stop and take the time to chat. We have explained Harley's situation and she is very understanding and helpful. So that's one dog in the neighbourhood dealt with, only another 20 or so to go

Laura · Master

Steve wrote:

Black labs and Golden retrievers are the worst. I'm told it is tricky for dogs to read a Black Labs facial expressions so that may be a reason for your grey to hate them with a passion.

Rosie does the same thing to a black lab in our local park. She snarls and snaps at him as soon as he comes anywhere near her (she is always muzzled). I thought it might be that he is a male and Rosie just didnt like being sniffed by him, because she is usually fine with other dogs even golden retrievers. How strange....

Lorna · GAL Shop Co-Ordinator

We had some progress yesterday - I was walking past a neighbours house where they are having building work done. The builders have a black labrador running around in the garden and Harley spotted him.

We were on the other side of the road but he would normally go wild and start barking and lunging - this time he just walked past the dog and looked at it with his ears up (I think he was working out if it was his friend Jack from our Balloch walks!) Anyway I was really pleased and hope it wasn't a one off.

Lesley · Guru

That sounds very positive Lorna. Who would've thought that his reactions to other dogs might change so quickly.

Once we have got the next few weeks sorted out - busy times and work, and summer holidays etc. - we will resume our walks and Harley's "labrador therapy"!!