Spoiled Greyhound or Deprived Childen

Teresa · Enlightened One

RE: Spoiled Greyhound or Deprived Childen

dinomartino · Master

Hi Jill. While I understand that there are strong feelings on both sides here I personally feel that it is refreshing to be able to welcome you to the forum. If everyone involved in racing thought about their dogs in the way that you do then perhaps we would be half way towards achieving the aims of organisations such as GAL. Regular GAL volunteers will have seen some horrific byproducts of the worst side of racing and I can understand their conviction that the only solution would be to ban racing completely, especially as the governing body is so reluctant to take any responsibility for the actions of its members, but meanwhile it would be good to reach more of the racing community through resources like this.

There are widely differing opinions in the forum about what constitutes a good quality of life for a dog. I find myself disagreeing violently with some of the opinions expressed in the forum but I would not consider it polite to attack those views as an opinion is exactly that: an opinion not a statement of fact. Can we not just agree to disagree with each other? I have been enjoying the recent lively debate... it would be a bit dull if we all thought the same, I reckon.... Most of us on the forum spoil our dogs rotten so perhaps we are leaning towards the other extreme!

BTW I'm a vegetarian who supports fox hunting and feed my spoilt dogs on a raw food diet. Bring it on!

Carol · Master

Now now Dino.....that last statement was just asking for trouble. However, I'll let someone else go there as fox-hunting just happens to be another of my pet hates. LOL

I will agree with you that lively debate is good and I like nothing more than a mini-squabble.

Nevertheless, at the risk of repeating myself, I will say again that it is important not to put people down because their viewpoint is different to your own (and I am not talking to you, Dino when I say this.)

Calling someone 'small-minded' because of their views is, in my opinion an extremely rude and inflammatory thing to say. If people cannot debate a point without resorting to name calling and/or personal attacks then I think that they should refrain from posting a comment or at least try to think about how it is best worded without causing massive offence. I know from first-hand experience that what my appear to the writer to be quite an innocuous statement can be completely misread and taken out of its intended context. Please, please activate brains before fingers in these circumstances.

So actually,if folk are more than willing to let their true feeling be known, without skirting issues and being childish, I'm up for a good debate...anyone else?

Teresa · Enlightened One

yep, i'm up for a good debate!!

we got dave and daisy from a greyhound trainer and i have nothing but admiration for him. he cared very much about his dogs, both racers and retired hounds. we often returned to the kennels on a Sunday morning to walk the retired dogs for him. at the time, we met many owners who also had their retired dogs as pets.

i've seen both sides of the industry and, while far too many dogs are bred for the "sport", there are good points to it... namely, that the dogs are bred for speed and competition and many of them are taken good care of. if only the industry were more tightly regulated, we'd have less dogs treated as commodities. surely, racehorses don't suffer such proliferation? do they? i really don't know.

dunno what the answer is tho... tighter regulation would force the sport underground with worse horrors to witness.

we really can't tar all trainers/owners etc with the same brush.

rebell · Old Hand

I think GAL does have immediate aims of homing needy dogs and, in order to achieve that, to encourage people to donate. I may be naive to think people signing up to a site like this are interested in welfare of greyhounds( can't see why they'd bother if they weren't) but I stand by my comment that the passion which is felt about the plight of these dogs will be more productive if it is "attractive" (as in making people want to get involved as opposed to making them feel they are not the right people to get involved) - there is no point preaching to a small circle of people who already share your views. It seems to me that people like Jill are in an excellent position to monitor racing activity and to effect change within the industry. It also seems likely to me that some people who watch racing do so because they love to see the dogs and, no matter whether you agree with that or not, those people may well be the most likely to provide good, caring homes for ex-racers because they already have an interest in the breed. Save the hostility for the people directly involved in the abuse of greys - many of the others may be potential allies.

Amber · Master

Whilst it is a refreshing change to hear from someone involved in greyhound racing who actually, genuinely, seems to care for their racing greyhounds, there are a couple of reasons why I, personally, find it all a bit difficult.

1. Racing greyhounds are at a high risk of injury when they race - this is mainly due to the construction of the oval tracks with tight bends, coupled with the high competition speeds. Anyone who races a greyhound must surely be aware that every time the dog races, it is exposed to a much higher than average risk of injury - sometimes these injuries are fatal.

2. Anyone who races greyhounds must be aware of the 'dirty' side of the industry. If I worked for a company that I knew 'employed' slaves that it abused and mistreated, if I stayed in that company and did nothing and said nothing, then I would feel culpable. By staying in the company, I would feel as though I were condoning the company's dubious policies. Even if I tried to help some of these slaves, by continuing to work for the company and being a cog in its wheel, it would be people like me that kept the company afloat.

3. Even if I am a top greyhound owner that cares for my own dogs, every time I buy a pup for greyhound racing, I am encouraging the breeding. My one pup that I bought had littermates - greyhound litters are usually large, 8 to 12 pups or even more. yet when I look for my pup's littermates, i see that only 3 or 4 of them are registered. The others are dead. Because I created the demand.

4. greyhound racing and greyhound welfare are mutually exclusive, when you look at the larger picture.

JMHO

-- Edited by Amber at 11:28, 2006-01-23

C_J · Master

Welcome to the forum Jill. I am myself against Greyhound Racing & Coursing, however that is my opinion and I do not expect everyone I meet to have the same views as me. I respect the fact that you take responsibility for your dogs after they have raced and can see that you are very passionate about them.

I agree with rebell when you say "It also seems likely to me that some people who watch racing do so because they love to see the dogs and, no matter whether you agree with that or not, those people may well be the most likely to provide good, caring homes for ex-racers because they already have an interest in the breed. Save the hostility for the people directly involved in the abuse of greys - many of the others may be potential allies."
I can understand why people love to watch greyhound racing and coursing as I get a buzz from seeing Casper run, but I choose to let him run free in fields. It is all down to education and I personally think that we should welcome people from all walks of life onto this forum.

Jill, I don't think the greyhound breed would die a death if greyhound racing was banned. Hare coursing is banned but my lurchers old owner has got two new greyhounds for coursing and he is quite open about why he has them. There are also show greyhounds, a whole world of greyhound racing and a whole world of greyhound/lurcher fans that would not let that happen.

Dawn when you say "The sad FACT is, that Greyhound racing is a money making seedy business, in which No Dog can ever win and a large proportion of those people involved do not want to be included."
I agree with the first statement about the racing industry but I do think that Jill has proved you wrong with the second bit. She seems to love her dogs and the ones she has at home seem cared for and loved so looks like they have done alright. I do not agree with the fact that they were raced in the first place but it is a pretty huge statement to say that NO DOG can ever win as as far as I can see Jills have. If every trainer/owner thought like Jill then maybe a lot more dogs would win. A large propoprtion of people from the racing industry may not want to get involved with greyhound rescue/welfare and may not care, but that's why, in my opinion, when someone from the racing industry signs up on a forum like this or takes and interest in greyhound welfare we should welcome them and learn from them.

Seems that Dino is having a confession time so here's mine: - my dog is not spoiled, he is not allowed on the couches or beds or even in my sons room, he only gets dog food and an occasional rawhide chew and even when we are training him I take the treats out of his dog food that is measured out daily! He is however loved very much and I chose to spoil him with cuddles and a safe home rather than food and higher status in my house! He is a very happy chap so therefore I am happy too. I hope that's not too controversial!!

DISCLAIMER: EVERYTHING I HAVE WRITTEN IN THIS POST IS MY OPINION AND IS NOT MEANT TO HURT OR OFFEND ANYONE READING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Edited by C_J at 14:25, 2006-01-23

Dawn · Guru

C_J wrote:

Dawn when you say "The sad FACT is, that Greyhound racing is a money making seedy business, in which No Dog can ever win and a large proportion of those people involved do not want to be included." I agree with the first statement about the racing industry but I do think that Jill has proved you wrong with the second bit.

CJ

You agree with the first part of what I wrote but the 2nd part of the sentence you disagree with? The 2nd part of the sentence actually reads " a large proportion of those people involved do not wanted to be included" How has Jill proved me wrong??? Where did she write that a large proportion of those people involved, Do want to be included???

I was not offended just confused.

Dawn

Dawn · Guru

Amber wrote:

2. Anyone who races greyhounds must be aware of the 'dirty' side of the industry. If I worked for a company that I knew 'employed' slaves that it abused and mistreated, if I stayed in that company and did nothing and said nothing, then I would feel culpable. By staying in the company, I would feel as though I were condoning the company's dubious policies. Even if I tried to help some of these slaves, by continuing to work for the company and being a cog in its wheel, it would be people like me that kept the company afloat.

Well said Amber, however, this is the very point that some are overlooking. If they need clarification on how 'dirty' this so call sport is, they should take off their rose tinted glasses and check out some of the web sites that show the curelty done to the Greyhounds.

The 'cancer' of abuse is so widespread in the industry, that one person alone will not change it, but if we could 'educate' those involved who apparently, do not notice or are not aware the cruelty going on, and they stop supporting GH racing, then we will have achieved something.

-- Edited by Dawn at 18:29, 2006-01-23

-- Edited by Dawn at 18:30, 2006-01-23

Carol · Master

I have particularly enjoyed reading these posts and it is lovely to see people put across thoughtful opinions without force. Before I write this next piece, I would like to state that it is in no way, shape or form directed towards any one member of the forum...'tis my own view.

I find myself in particular agreement with Amber and find her concerns to be much the same as my own.

Racetracks are to me an 'unnatural' environment for running. While I agree that greyhounds like nothing better than to run, they were bred to do so freely. I fail to see what can be enjoyable about being shoved into a trap and then being expected to chase a mechanical animal around a tight circuit. It hardly compares to the fun of kicking up your heels in a field or secure area. What's more, who cares whether or not a dog can outrun his playmate in the park? The inability to do this on a race track may just be more than his life's worth.

The sad fact of the matter is that the artificial conditions do cause massive injury and death...far more than would be sustained from free running. Dogs suffer regularly from broken legs, especially if tracks are frosty, and wrist and shoulder injuries are commonplace. Dogs can and have been electrocuted from coming a cropper on the hare track.

I would also argue that trainers who treat their own dogs very well, yet turn a blind eye to the atrocities of others' are guilty by association. If we cannot see an end to greyhound racing then I would urge trainers not to remain silent but to speak out and demand that dogs who are used for this 'sport' are treated as a first class athlete should be; not as a disposible money-making commodity, which should be disposed of in the easiest possible way as soon as they stop lining wallets. Until trainers begin to 'shop' other trainers who mistreat their dogs, in my eyes, they would be just as well doing it themselves.

While I understand that we should be seen to be 'attracting' people to our cause, I would really and truly like people to know that the main hardship endured by greyhounds is not the fact that they don't get treats at will and don't sleep on a sofa.

Please, please if you do not understand the true extent to which these amazing animals suffer, do as Dawn has already asked....I implore you to educate yourself. I am not going to sit here all night and try to shock you into my way of thinking by relating grizzly details. However, I feel that it is vitally important that if you are involved in an organisation such as ours that you come fully armed with the facts, not the half-truths or the amount of knowledge you think your stomach and conscience can bear. Know the facts, that's all I ask.

Teresa · Enlightened One

well, i can't think of anything to disagree with Carol about Thumbs Up

max · Enlightened One

I have read with great interest all the comments that have been posted, and I agree with Carol when she says about educating yourself. It is imperative that we do not alienate others to the plight of the greys, but educate them and in time people will understand what this is all about. I will say that I do not think working in the industry tars all with the same brush, it is these very people that we do want to encourage and educate to see the life of a greyhound in a different light and not just as a money making commodity. There are a lot of good trainers out there who are doing the right things for their dogs and they are in the best position to be aware of others that are not quite so thoughtful. Jill is doing OK and so are her dogs and I hope she will continue to make posting and maybe her great interest and concern for these dogs will get through to others. Greyhonds have been used for various things through out their time on earth and sadly it will continue for many more years all we can do is educate and maybe some day things will be different for these wonderful dogs. Nora

C_J · Master

Dawn, I am glad you did not take offence to what I wrote. Sorry if what I said was confusing. Basically what I meant was that where you said that "No dog can ever win" - I feel that even though Jill's dogs have been made to race I feel that they have landed on their feet now living in a loving home. I feel that they are lucky ones that have won.

I am really enjoying this discussion and hearing other peoples opinions on these matters. I am fairly new to the forum and fairly new to the greyhound world, I have learnt a lot in the past year but it is good to hear from more experienced people who have been caring about the plight of these lovely dogs for a lot longer than I have.

I was discussing this topic with my partner last night and he seemed to think that it was unrealistic that greyhound racing would ever be banned. "Ever" is a strong word, but basically he said he thought it was far too big an industry for it ever to be banned. I just wondered what other people thought of that?

Jane

Amanda · Master

Hi CJ

Although I do not like GH racing I wouldn't want to see it banned. My worry is that this would drive it under ground and if the official "policed" tracks were closed nobody would be keeping an eye on the condition of the dogs plus trainers would be less willing to hand dogs over to people like GAL if racing were illigal.

IMO the flapping tracks should be banned and all tracks should be monitored by some external force ie sspca or the likes and measures should be taken to stop Gh being bred in such huge numbers, plus trainers and owners should be held responsible for their dogs welfare after they have finished racing life.

As many have said not all trainers are bad and I do feel a bit sorry for the responsible ones who get tarred with the same brush as the others.

jill · Graduate

I never thought that mentoining greyhound racing was going to spark such a rage... i am fully aware of what accidents can happen on the track... i have a dog with me that was not owned by myself that suffered an accident yes his owner did abandon him and yes i agree thoroughly that alot of people need educating and yes i agree that too many are being bred but please do not tar everyone with the same brush, i for one love racing, watching them stretch out and run.. they are truely elegent dogs. Accidents can happen anywhere whether its in the park, garden, or in your home, as long as the dogs get the love and care whilst injured and at the kennels they are cared for, i've worked with them all my life, i've been brought up with greyhounds for the past 40+ years. I do agree some people are ignorant to what can happen but you simply can not say ban racing, if this is the case what about horse racing, fox hunting, coursing, the list goes on. Our walk of life is a mine field, there is alot of nastiness out there... thousands of children being abused, put in care, some not so lucky. pets whether dog, cat or more exotic pet being starved, neglected. i have a cat of 11 years that was starved, shaved with cigarettes burns on her, after years she's still nervous with people, but this was done with intention of hurting her, greyhound racing is not done with any intention of hurting them, accidents do happen. i know this wasn't the subject but what im trying to say is that everyone needs educating to a certain degree when it comes to animal care not just those in the racing industry. This is a rather sensitive subject and not everyones going to agree but you can not tar everyone with the same brush... i will always follow greyhound racing... just brought another three...

cj · Rookie

I AGREE WITH JILL.... I ENJOY RACING. I DO NOT NEED EDUCATING TO THE SPORT. I AM A TRAINER WITH LOVE AND COMPASSION TO THE DOGS... THEY ARE WHAT MATTERS TO ME AND TO MY OWNERS. YES ACCIDENTS HAPPEN BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE LEFT; MY DOGS ALL RECIEVE UPMOST ATTENTION AT ALL TIMES. BAN RACING....NEVER!!!

C_J · Master

I am actually not sure what my feelings are on banning greyhound racing, that is why I asked the question. I wanted to see what other peoples opinions were on the subject as I had mentioned to my partner that people on the forum had mentioned banning greyhound racing and he just said he thought it was unrealistic. I think Amanda you have a very good point. Coursing and fox hunting has been banned but still goes on, I guess it would be the same for racing.

Sorry if I offended folk, I was just interested to see different peoples view points.

Jane

Lesley · Guru

Sadly - much of what happens to greyhounds is not "accident". Would that it were!

Many greyhounds are kept in squalor, made to run on injuries, given drugs to disguise injuries, become addicted to drugs - and that is only some of what may happen while they are still of use to their owner.

Once their owner has lost interest - they may be beaten to death, poisoned (as I can personally testify, having looked after one which was), shot, drowned, abandoned, put to sleep, or - the lucky ones may end up with rescue organisations.

Dawn · Guru

Well said Lesley!!

Hasnt this thread really fired up some emotion?

Problem as I see it, is not the fact that we dont welcome people who DO look after their dogs, but the trainers/owners who dont, and as I have said several times the ones that DO look after them are in the MINORITY! Therefore, I dont understand why some have taken that comment as a slant on them and found the need to justify their involvement in this sport and I can only assume, it is due to their knowledge of ill treatment of the GH's that makes them so defensive of their own behavour towards them.

I have noted that the 'pro racing camp' are very quick to justify 'accidents' happening, and how they look after their own dogs in their post racing days, but none seem to want to acknowledge the horrendous abuse suffered by thousands of greys every year at the hands of trainers.

Dawn

Amber · Master

Just to answer a couple of points that have been aired:

Yes, accidents can happen anywhere, anytime, but the probablity of a racing accident/injury is much higher than in the course of a normal dog's life - in my post I said that the racing owners surely must be aware of this, yet race the dogs anyway - which is true and you have admitted as much Jill.

Why is it whenever this debate crops up, pro racing people immediately point the finger at pet owners and child abusers - indeed, anyone else who also abuses? That is not the issue in hand - the issue in hand is the profiteering industry of grehound racing and the exploitation of thousands of dogs. It is not a 'social' issue as far as I see it, but a business issue. The business of greyhound racing is unethical.

Next thing - please don't be surprised to be tarred with the same brush - I have already answered that point in my previous post - guilty by association. Oh and in case you haven't noticed, fox hunting and coursing have already been banned in this country.

The final thing - banning greyhound racing drives it 'underground'. Where exactly are greyhound racers going to be able to set up an oval track stadium for illegal racing where the police and others are not going to notice or find out about it?!

Amanda · Master

Amber wrote:

The final thing - banning greyhound racing drives it 'underground'. Where exactly are greyhound racers going to be able to set up an oval track stadium for illegal racing where the police and others are not going to notice or find out about it?!

I'm sure they would manage it in the same way coursing and fox hunting still goes on although banned.....

Amber · Master

Amanda wrote:

Amber wrote: The final thing - banning greyhound racing drives it 'underground'. Where exactly are greyhound racers going to be able to set up an oval track stadium for illegal racing where the police and others are not going to notice or find out about it?! I'm sure they would manage it in the same way coursing and fox hunting still goes on although banned.....

No, I dont think they would be able to quickly fabricate and then dismantle a proper racetrack. The coursing and fox-hunting does not require facilities like that.

It may be possible for a small group of people on private land to have racing on the flat - not requiring the construction of a race-track - with an artificial lure and betting BUT for the sake of secrecy that would of necessity have to be a small affair. That sort of thing goes on anyway with small groups of people and live (now illegal) hare coursing.

But the point is, we would be talking about much smaller numbers of people and dogs - and I can't see that the conditions would be any worse than what currently goes in within the racing industry or what currently goes on with travellers and coursing dogs etc. It is a difficult thing to police granted, but if the big tracks were closed down due to a ban, there is no way that they can be replicated in scale illegally - it would simply not be possible IMO.

The fox hunting that goes on - this is supposed to now be drag hunting, the hounds are not supposed to follow the scent of a live fox, although sometimes this still happens. But because that particular sport is not constrained to be fixed in one spot (as GH racing is because of the infrastructure of the race track) it is more difficult to police.

Amanda · Master

hmm knew there was a reason I was keeping out of this debate

max · Enlightened One

DITTO, AMANDA . AND ALL THIS FROM A TIN OF HOT DOGS ?

Christine Young · GAL Newsletter Editor

Hi Jill! And welcome to the forum!

I've come in late to this debate and I've read it all with interest and agree with much of what has been said.

But aren't we all getting our knickers in a twist over the same thing? It seems to me that whether we're involved in greyhound racing or not - we ALL want to eradicate the cruelty and abuse involved. It could well be that the people best placed to police the industry are the good and responsible trainers and owners involved in it. They can blow the whistle from the inside and educate and report to the authorities any abuses they see or hear about. And demand that something is done about it!! So yeah, although I don't agree with racing myself, the racing industry is all the better for people like Jill and the trainer who posted.

I don't think that greyhound racing will be banned in my lifetime. But much stricter regulations for breeding greyhounds in Britain and Ireland, would certainly help reduce the excess of dogs that are offloaded (in whichever way) by irresponsible and, let's face it, downright nasty people every year. I don't know how this could be done though, as breeding would probably go 'underground' too.

There's no easy answer apart from education, to stop the cruelty and abuse going on. But I DO think that the Greyhound Racing Industry and the Bookmakers should do MUCH, MUCH MORE financially and put up resources to investigate, regulate and prosecute (I would even go as far as persecute) the people caught. Naming and shaming amongst the racing fraternity might be a way it could be done!

Christine

Carol · Master

Here's a little bit of light reading for you all from the NGRC Website, concerning Greyhound Welfare......

Rule 18 - Responsibility of owner

i The NGRC Stewards shall hold the last registered Owner to be responsible for the welfare of a Greyhound and also for making acceptable arrangements for his/her retired Greyhound as follows :-

a The Greyhound be retained as a pet, or

b the Greyhound be boarded at a Licensed Kennel, or

c the Greyhound be boarded at a Kennel licensed by the local authority, or

d the Greyhound be found a home through the Retired Greyhound Trust, or

e the Greyhound be sold or found a home, responsibly, or

f if it is necessary for the Greyhound to be euthanased either on humane grounds or because none of the above options are available, the Owner ensuring, subject to Rule 58, that such euthanasia is carried out by a registered Veterinary Surgeon.

ii

A registered Owner shall inform the NGRC if there is any change in ownership of a registered Greyhound and whether or not it is intended to enter in any Trial or Race again (see Rule 20).

A registered Owner shall also report, or arrange for a licensed Trainer to report on his/her behalf, the retirement of a Greyhound which it is not intended to enter it in any Trial or Race again, or any subsequent "Comeback" from a previously-reported retirement, to the Racing Manager of any NGRC Licensed Racecourse and shall be given and retain a receipt in the form of a copy of a Greyhound Detail Report prepared under Rules 195(ii) and 194(vii).

iii

Failure to give notification under Rule 18(ii) within 28 Days of the Change of Ownership shall result in a penalty being levied and may result in the NGRC Stewards prohibiting an Owner from registering Greyhounds unless the Owner is able to satisfy the Stewards that any future retirement of a Greyhound in his/her charge will be strictly in accordance with Rule 18.

Do you think that all owners and trainers abide by these rules?

-- Edited by Carol at 19:50, 2006-01-24

Dave · Enlightened One

Loved the debate guys, goany close this one now, I'm glad to see we have such diverse viewpoints and I'm sure this topic will raise it's head again in the future.

GAL's viewpoint on this? We're PRO GREYHOUND