Well said Dave.

I could no more ignore my dogs (amongst many other Fennel things) when I arrive home than fly to the moon.

Her methods are outdated and, according to current reasearch, possitively detrimental to any dogs mental wellbeing.

Do people really think that ignoring dogs teaches them anything about it's owner being a leader? It's more a case of them taking the opinion of, your no fun anymore so I will no longer ineract with you.

Let's learn more about how dogs learn then we can understand them better instead of trying to think that we are 'alpha' or some sort of wolf pack leader. Genetically we are closer to apes than dogs are to wolves. I'm no monkey............well, at least I don't think so!

Cheers,

Viv

Couldn't agree more.

Not knocking anyone here (although I have tried the method, about 20 years ago), just suggesting that we might open our minds a little and make sure there is always another place to look for often much needed information.

There may also be a commom reason why JF has taken 'a lot of flack'. (btw, I can only speak for myself as a behaviourist and dog trainer, but I don't think I'm always right. )

We all need to view the bigger picture by doing more research to be fair to all.

Viv

Hi Marian,

I could chat all day on this kind of subject

It's interesting that JF uses the 'ignore your dog' so much and I have to say it can be a very important part of some behaviour modification programmes. However, I have to stress that simply ignoring behaviours can be positively dangerous in some situations as you can imagine.

Often folk just pick up on one part of the programme and often do with JF's techniques, unfortunately she doesn't go a bundle on what motivates dogs to do what they do or to inform people about why dogs can often behave (scientifically) in what seems to be the same way, for completely different reasons. It's just not as simple as she makes out and so dog owners don't really have the complete story to work on. It makes good tele, I suppose.

1. Look at what motivates the dog into carrying out the undesired behaviour.

2. Try to establish just what is reinforcing the undesired behaviour.

3. Restructure the reward system.

4. Take into account general inate breed requirements.

5. Ensure moodstate is in the normal zone (before carrying out any behaviour work).

Just out of interest, what exactly did your friend do to get her Great Dane to stop jumping up? I wonder if we could break it down to explain why it worked.

Viv (who should remember she has stopped work for the holiday!)

Viv, I believe my friend and her hubby just ignored her Great Dane for 5 minutes when they came in, just like JF's book says.    The dog just gave up trying to jump up - as if it were a waste of time to do any "attention seeking"  She is just a much calmer dog when they come home.  I think the dog feels there is no point in getting in a frenzy now. She is called over and made a fuss of when she is calm. So now knows this is a great way to behave. By being calm she gets called over, gets the cuddles and a treat, easy!!   Why could we not have thought of that.  Simple!  They are delighted.

I wish you could have helped me with my last dog!! What a nightmare!!   My last poodle was very dominent.  I see lots of dogs like him on Dog Borstal on the telly.  He was aggressive and snappy.  When he sat on my knee ( big mistake starting that)  he would snarl and bite when I went to put him down.  This dog meant business. He bit lots of people and drew blood.    No dog clipper would touch him. I had to do it myself and have lots of bandages on hand.  He completely refused to lie down! He would sit at a push, but take the hand off you if you tried to get him to lie down. He wouldn't get off our bed ( big mistake again! I know, I know!) without lunging at you with teeth snarling.  When people came into the house he barked like crazy when they arrived. When people stood up to go out he went into a barking frenzy.  He was very intimidating.   The vet castrated him at 1 year old, when he bit my son.  He regularly bit the vet!!   Castration did not help. The vet thinks he was a bad dog and one of his parents possibly, was like him.  I don't know how I managed to get a dog like that.  I often feel it was my fault somehow, but where did I go so badly wrong??? Did I spoil him too much as a pup??   I had dogs growing up and went to dog training with my mum.   I was not a complete novice. 

He wanted out 3 times a night!  He was at it. He would just sniff the air and come back in, the wee bugger!!  I knew it was his way of controling us, to get us to do whatever he wanted.  We tried lots of things, to no avail.    I have been avidly reading Laura's dilemma with interest in the dog behaviour section !! rings so many bells, I cannot even comment on it, as we were no bloody use!!    David and I started shouting at each other during the night about who's turn it was to let him out next. We both went to work with baggy eyes each day. We talked about putting him down when we were stressed and upset. But, none of us could ever do it!   If we did not get up for him he would bark the house down . We tried to ignore it for a few nights, but he would not stop barking. We really began to resent this little dog.   I have never ever come across a more strong willed and demanding dog in all my life. 

However, he was very loving when he got his own way, just don't do anything to him like brushing him or cleaning his eyes! I had him for 14 years, most folk would have got rid of him.  I could not. I firmly believe a dog is for life. When he died of heart desease, I was in tears, but It may sound horrible, it was a relief.    My husband is a dog lover, but, it took me 3 years to get him to agree to having another!!  Thank god, Jack is the most placid, obedient, loving, gentle natured animal we could ever wish for.  I can really spoil Jack and it makes no difference to his nature.   It has restored our faith in dogs!   

So, you can maybe see why I like JF's book. Just about evey problem dog in the book was Bengy rolled into one!!  When I read it, I could see where I went wrong.  I really feel, if I had tried some of her methods, we may have had a nicer dog.  Who Knows, I'll never know. 

Sorry about the novel!!  Got my lovely Jack now, so I can forget about the past. 

Marian.